Psychiatric Interview with Jordie Chandler
(October 6, 1993)
In October of 1993 Larry Feldman sent Jordie to New York to be interviewed by the man, Dr. Richard Gardner, the nation's leading authority on false claims of child abuse. More often than not Dr. Gardner appears as an expert witness for the defense.
Gardner put Jordie through a battery of psychological tests, written and oral, including a face to face interview. What follows is a transcript of that interview. Information appearing in brackets [ ] was added to aid in following the timeline of the book. The symbol //////// designates a deleted segment, either idle chit chat or a detailed description of sex acts. Most of the “ums,” “ers,” and repeated phrases have been omitted in the interest of clarity and brevity. And the names of other boys have been changed to protect their privacy.
First there was an introductory period in which Gardner explained to Jordie that there were some who claimed he might be lying, and that one of the purposes of the interview was to find out the truth. Gardner also informed Jordie how important it was that they be honest with each other. Jordie asked Gardner a few personal questions, making it clear that he was trying to find out if the psychiatrist liked children.
After Jordie had relaxed, Dr. Gardner began his interview. They started with the chance encounters between Jordie and Michael prior to their meeting in 1992 (see All That Glitters). Then . . .
"Okay," Dr. Gardner asked. "At age twelve and a half, May ‘92, what happened then?"
"I met him at Mr. Schwartz's (car rental agency)," Jordie answered, and went on to explain how it happened, ending with this. "And then my stepfather took him [Michael] outside to choose a car for him to use. And I guess when my stepfather was outside he said, 'You don't have to pay for the car if you just take Jordie's number and give him a call.'"
"Why would your stepfather say that?"
"Because my stepfather knows I was interested in Michael Jackson and his music."
"And this was in your presence?"
"No. I was told this by my stepfather."
"So what happened then?"
"Then he [Michael] left."
"Did he agree to the deal, Jackson?"
"Okay, then what happened?"
"I don't remember how many days later, but he called me."
"What did he say?"
"He said...I don't really remember, but I remember the conversations we had on the phone around the early days of our relationship."
"That was the beginning of the relationship, is that correct?"
"How long did the first call last?"
"I don't remember. I don't remember the very first call."
"In this first phase, let's call it the telephone call phase. I would like to try to break it down into phases. This first phase was started around May of ’92; that phase which was confined just to telephone calls. How long did that phase last?"
"I would say sometime in late January of this year .”
"How often were the calls during this phase?"
"Well, see, he went on tour during the summer so that was when I got off of school, so I would say June or so. But before that he called - - I don't know, I don't want to guess wrong. I don’t know."
"If you could guess the total number of calls during that first phase, over that seven or eight month period?"
“I don’t know. Do you think I could tell you - get more specific in the phase - and let’s see there? So, well, I remember - - he called over there at my dad’s house but my step-father had gave him my mom’s number.”
“You were living primarily with your mother at that point.”
“And so, I assume he - - I can’t really remember but I assume he was used to calling my mother’s house. And so he called my dad’s house. I don’t know, I think my mother gave him the number. We spoke for, I remember, for like three hours.”
“You had conversations for three hours?”
“Well, that one call.”
“There was one phone call for three-hours; we’re talking about the telephone phase now.”
“Well, I’m trying to be specific and then when I’m finished - - ”
“Was it all in that time frame now, I want to stick with that time frame?”
“Right, I know, well I have to remember what happened.”
“Sure, but I’m going to interrupt you to clarify. Was there more than one three-hour telephone call during the telephone phase?"
"About how many, roughly, were there?"
“I don’t know, it could be - - ”
“More than ten? Was it roughly 5-10 such calls to the best of your ability? Would that be an accurate statement?”
“Okay, that’s all. I don’t expect you to (inaudible) but if you could narrow it down to a rough guess and we’re able to indicate that that’s a guess then that’s fine.”
“Okay, well - - ”
"What would you talk about in these three-hour conversations?"
"He would talk about things he likes to do.”
“Like video games. He’d talk about things he has at his Neverland Ranch.”
“How is that spelled?”
“He told me he had animals."
"Did he tell you what animals he had?"
"Giraffes, elephants, a lion, horses, a petting zoo, and other animals. He had reptiles."
"What other things did he say that he liked?"
"Playing water fights. He has this custom made water fight place.”
“What is that like?”
“It’s sort of like a water-war zone."
"Was it some kind of a pool or something like that?"
"No, it was structures built with water guns attached to it; all different things. It has an obstacle
"What else did he talk about?"
"He talked about some of the friends he had."
"What did he say about his friends?"
"Well, he talked about who some of his more famous friends were."
“And who was he?”
“He’s the kid from [deleted for privacy].”
"Was there anything special about that relationship at this time?"
"He said that Peter Davis was the kind of kid who likes to prank a lot, to prank people."
"Was he involved in pranks with him?"
"Sort of. He said Peter Davis sort of coerced him into going along."
"What other friends did he say he had?"
"Joshua Samuels, who was [deleted for privacy]."
“Joshua Samuels, who is he?”
“[Deleted for privacy], you know?”
“How old is Joshua Samuels now?”
“I don’t know; he could be [deleted for privacy].”
"And what did he say about Joshua Samuels?"
"That he was his friend and that was it."
"In any of this period, was there anything sexual said?"
"Anything else that he’d talk about on the telephone during these conversations?"
"Other things that he had done at his ranch. He has a carnival sort of thing, a movie theater, some golf carts that you drive around in."
"Would you say that that was the main topic of conversation, telling you about his Neverland?"
"And what were your reactions to that?"
"Well, for just a regular kid it seemed pretty fantastical and overwhelming. And also, he would
tell me that Neverland is named after the place that Peter Pan was, because he thought that he
was Peter Pan."
"He thought that he was Peter Pan?"
"Yeah. And he said that Neverland was a place where kids had the right-of-way, on the roads,
had the dominance, sort of. Could have what you want when you want it."
"Is there anything else you can tell me about these conversations? We're still talking about the telephone phase."
"No, that's about it. But after that, he went on tour in June and came back in early February, late January."
"Oh, so in this time frame during the telephone phase from May ’92 to late January ‘93, he was on tour?”
“Except for (inaudible) May and I would say June.”
“And the tour lasted how long?”
“From I would say June to February.”
"So from June ’92 to February ’93, he was on tour? Is it correct to say then that these telephone calls were made from various parts of the world?
“Do you remember some of the countries?”
“Paris, Rome. I think he was in Turkey or something. I could be wrong about that.”
"Okay, anything else you want to tell me about phase one?"
"Well, actually the first time - when I was at my dad’s and I spoke to him for three hours – he was at his apartment complex in Century City. We were trying to work out a time when I could go there and play with the video games.”
“So there was an invitation extended?”
“Except it didn’t work out because - - ”
“When was this to the best of your recollection?”
“May of ’92, he invited you to Century City?”
“He has an apartment there which is called ‘The Hideout”.”
“Why is it called “The Hideout’?”
“Because it’s in a very public place but yet nobody knows he’s there.”
“He invited you with whom? Did he invite you with anybody else or was it you alone?”
“I don’t remember, I think - - I don’t know.”
“Okay, but why didn’t it work out?”
“Because I had to study.”
“Now, anything else you can tell me about that time?”
"You used the words before, that it was fantastic and overwhelming. What I want to know is, that between these calls, did you find yourself thinking about him a lot?"
"What kind of thoughts were you having?"
"Like, um, his house must be a great place, and everything."
“Did you dream about it?”
“I don’t think so.”
“Did it in any way interfere with school work?”
"Yeah, I mean when you're talking to him you can't do homework, but did it interfere with your concentrating on what you're supposed to do, school, and things like that?"
"What were your parents' reactions during all this time of that phase?"
"I don't remember them thinking anything bad about it at all."
"So now the next phase would be starting in January of ‘93. Now you know better than I - - "
"That would be late January, early February."
"Okay, let’s call that phase two. Now, you know better than I how to break down phases since this is from your life and your experiences. What would you like to set aside as phase two?”
“Maybe, we should call it the portion of seeing him. We could call it that.”
“Okay, seeing him. So that phase two begins with actual contact with him - when two human beings are together as opposed to over the phone."
“That’s when phase two starts.”
“Actually, I think we should call it more of the early part of it, because, um, things got bad as it got intimate."
"When you say it got bad, you mean what?"
"Sexual things happened."
"Okay. Let's do this now. Let’s call phase two the phase when there was involvement with him
- not through the telephone but you were with him together - but there was nothing sexual. Do
you want to call that phase two?
“And then phase three would be sexual."
“Since you mentioned the sexual, and that’s, let’s say, around early February?”
“Early February ’93 to when?”
“I think maybe my mom would know, because that was during the Las Vegas trip, where it switched. That was the first trip."
“Okay, so that’s the best of your recollection. I’m going to speak to your mom and your dad later and they can fill me in on some of these details. That’s one of the reasons I have your mom in the next room so if there’s any discrepancies in details, I can get it from her. To the best of your knowledge – recollection – when was Las Vegas? Was it before the summer or after the summer?”
“I believe it was after the summer. After the summer of ’92 but not - - ”
“We’re in ’93.”
“Right. So it was before, like, I believe I had a break in school in February.”
“Okay, well you said that phase two started in February of ’93.”
“Early February of ’93.”
“You said something about Las Vegas. So you’re saying that something happened physically in Las Vegas? Is that what you’re saying?”
“Yeah, that’s when it started.”
"You started to sleep in his bed? Did you start to sleep in his bed in early February ’93?”
“Was there a time frame where - - ”
"Sort of later February."
"So phase two might have been a very short time then?”
“Okay, I just wanted to get an idea when there was contact. See, in phase one, there was nothing sexual, right?”
“That’s right, in phase one.”
“In phase two, we’re still talking about nothing sexual but there was contact with him as human beings as opposed to the telephone. I would say, sleeping in bed, I'll call that sexual. Some people might not but I would."
"Right, and I consider that too, and that's where it switched."
"Most people would consider it sexual to sleep in bed with a person. How long was the time frame from the time you first saw him in the flesh, and the time you slept in bed with him?"
"I don't know."
"But it was in February when you started sleeping in the bed with him.”
"Right, right. I’m really not even sure if it was in February, but - - "
“Okay, but phase two then was a short period.”
"Maybe about a month, or less then a month?"
"I don't know."
"Okay, we'll put that in as a question mark. Now what I want to know is in that phase, what kinds of things did you do with him, before you slept in bed with him?"
"Well, we went to his Neverland."
"Me, my mother and Kelly, my sister, my half-sister."
"What happened there?"
"Nothing happened. I slept in the guest area with my mother and Kelly, and Michael stayed in his room."
"How long were you at Neverland?"
"I think for a weekend."
“Do you know if it was Friday or Saturday or Sunday? Was it two days or three days?”
“I don’t know.”
"What did you do?"
"We went jet skiing on a small lake he has.”
“What else did you do there?”
“We saw the animals and played video games."
"You did those things with him?"
"So these activities were with him? What other kind of activities did you do with him?"
"We took golf cart rides."
"With Kelly and your mother?"
"Occasionally, like, half and half. They would go off sometimes."
“My mother and Kelly.”
"How many visits were there to Neverland in that time frame?"
"I don't remember."
"So we’re still in phase two now. Anything else besides the visits to Neverland in phase two?"
"We may have gone to the Century City apartment."
"Who was with you?"
"Michael and I. I can’t remember if my mom (inaudible)."
"Then what happened? Is that the end of phase two? Were there calls during phase two?"
"Calls lasting three hours?"
"Yeah. Oh yeah, I just remembered. When we were at Neverland we went to Toys-R-Us, when it was closed. My sister and I could get anything we wanted."
"They opened the store for him, is that it?"
"How much would you buy?"
"A lot. We got to take along shopping carts and fill them up."
"Do you have any idea what the cost of that was?”
“What kinds of things did you get, do you remember?”
“Video games (inaudible).”
“Anything else in phase two?"
“Going back to phase one. I know you don’t have a record of the times he called you, but if
you could guess offhand the total number of telephone calls in phase one, what would you say it
was? Not only the three-hours calls, but the calls that were shorter as well, what would you
“I believe ten.”
"Now, let's go into phase three."
“Do you think phase three should be subdivided or would you just like to describe it as how things evolved?”
“I don’t really know because - - can we fill that question in later?”
"Phase three began, I would say, when we were on the trip to Las Vegas. We stayed at the Mirage Hotel."
“On a trip, and to the best of your recollection that was when?”
“I can’t really remember. I think late February or so.”
“Okay, that was after the trip to Neverland, after the Toys-R-Us. In Century City, did anything special happen?”
“No, not that I can remember. We just played video games.”
“He had the video games there?”
“When you say we, who was we?”
“My mother, Kelly and I.”
"What happened in Las Vegas?"
"My mom and Kelly shared a room. Michael had his own room. It was a big suite."
“Was Kelly in the same room with you?”
“No, with my mom, and I had my own room.”
"You had your room, Kelly and your Mom had a room, and Michael had a room."
“Was it connected or in separate places? Was it one big suite?”
“It was a big suite, yeah.”
“Let’s see, one night - - “
“How long were you there?”
“I don’t know, maybe a week.”
“What happened that night?”
“After my mom and Kelly went to sleep, we went to watch the movie The Exorcist. We were in his room, in his bed. And when it was over I was scared, and he said, why don't you just stay in here. And I did and nothing happened."
"When you say you stayed in the room - - "
"Stayed in the same bed."
“Slept in the same bed?”
"When you slept in the same bed was there any physical contact?"
"Was it a big bed?"
"Yeah, I think so."
“So there was no physical contact. What were your thoughts when he said let's sleep in the same bed?"
"Well, I was scared, and I didn't think anything was going to happen."
“You were scared of him or scared of the movie?”
“The movie. So I said, ‘Okay, that’s fine.” It was like a regular slumber party.”
“Okay, is there anything else to say about that event?”
“Just simply that we talked about how they got the idea for The Exorcist. So the next morning, I was with my mom alone and - - ”
"Did your mother know that you had slept in bed with him?"
"Well, I’m getting to that. I said, ‘I slept with Michael in the same bed last night,’ and she said, ‘Well, just don't do it again’."
"Did she speak to Michael at all?"
"Well, I'll get to that. So when I told Michael the news of the fact that she said don't do that again - don’t sleep in the same bed - we were alone, Michael and I, and he burst out in tears and said, 'She can't set up barricades like that,' and 'Nothing could happen, it's just a simple slumber
party type thing,' and 'There's nothing wrong with it’.”
“He said, nothing will happen, there’s nothing wrong with it, and it’s like a slumber party?”
“Right. And so, he came - - I don't remember if I was crying or not but he decided that he had to confront my mom with his feelings about what she said. What he told me he said, ‘There's nothing wrong with it, you should allow it because it's simple and fun and you shouldn't set up barricades.’ And he got my mom feeling so guilty that she just broke down in tears and decided that, okay, I believe you. And Michael somehow got her to agree that there would be no further questions asked. And so from that point on I was in his bed till the end of our relationship."
"So, are you saying from then on you were in his bed - - are you talking about the Las Vegas trip, or from then on all the time?"
"All the time."
"You said to the best of your recollection the Las Vegas trip was one week. How many times did you sleep in his bed?"
"I’d say maybe two or three."
"Okay, was there any physical contact?"
"Was there any undressing in front of you?"
"Did you undress in front of him?"
"Okay, alright that’s Las Vegas. Are we finished with Las Vegas? Is there anything else to say about Las Vegas?"
“No, that’s it.”
“Okay, bring me to the next step then.”
"Well, when we got back to L.A. our friendship was a lot more close than when we had left, and so we saw each other more. And we quite frequently went up to his ranch."
"And each time you were there you would sleep in bed with him?"
"Yeah. And my mom and Kelly would stay in that same guest place."
"And how far was that guest place from the room you slept in?"
"It was far, it was quite a lot. Know where the bathrooms are? From here to the bathrooms."
[Jordie is describing the distance from the interview room to the bathrooms in the building in
which Dr. Gardner’s office is located.]
“That’s like a block away. It’s the equivalent of a city block.”
“No, it’s smaller than that.”
“Half a block away?”
“I can’t really remember, but that’s about right.”
“Okay, I would say that’s a few hundred feet.”
“Well, I don’t know, you should ask my mom.”
"It was in the same house?"
"It was in a different house?"
"Yeah. It was like a guest complex and they stayed in that room."
"So it was a different building?"
"But Michael and I stayed in his room, which was in the main house."
"So here we are in Neverland, and then what's the next step?"
"Well, I slept in his bed there, and then each week we would go back up and it would kind of progress sleeping in bed, and I think one night we were sleeping in the bed, I think it was at Neverland, and he just leaned over and hugged me or something."
"Okay, lets call that the end of phase two. Let’s call phase three sleeping in the same bed and nothing else. Alright?”
“We’ll call phase four: it was more physical contact."
"This is where it starts."
"Where the physical contact started? When would you say that started to the best of your recollection?”
“When like what time?"
“What month? I mean Las Vegas, you said, was in early February sometime.”
“Las Vegas was more like later February.”
“Okay, late February. When was the first hug?”
“I don’t know.”
“Do you have any idea?”
“Was it before the summer of ’93?”
"I would think early May, middle May ."
"Somewhere in May ’93; that was the first hug? And that was while you were in bed?"
"Where were you at the time? Where was the bed - physical location?”
“Do you want me to describe what his room looked like?
"No, I’m wondering where the bed was. Were you at Neverland or were you in some city?”
“Oh, this was in Neverland. I think it may have been somewhere else but I’m almost positive it was Neverland.”
“Okay, and what happened then?”
"He hugged me and I thought nothing of it. I said, okay, whatever. And that was it and he continued that for a small amount of time."
"How long would the hug last?"
"A quick hug and that was it."
"And this was while in bed?"
"Yeah, and fully clothed."
"And did you say anything?"
"I don’t remember, I think he said 'I love you, good night,' or something. I don't know."
"Did you push him away?"
"No. I just – I don't think I hugged him back. I just said, 'I love you, good night.'
"He said 'I love you'?"
"I think so, I don't know."
"When you say ‘I love you,’ it can be said in many different ways. You understand, someone can say ‘I love you’ and their really saying I’m in love, and sometimes you can say ‘I love you’ as a friendly gesture without romantic feelings. What kind of a way did you say that? Were you saying it with romantic feelings or - - ?"
“Just friendly. It wasn’t a romantic love?”
"Okay, go ahead."
"So after that hugging thing - - "
"Are you describing now a beginning of a pattern of hugging?"
"Yes, like every time he would graduate to a new sexual act, we'd continue that and graduate some more."
"Okay, what was the next step? So are you saying there was a lot of hugging, a lot of attempts to hug?"
"Did this happen in bed or under other circumstances?"
"You know, I mean it was just a regular hug that if anybody saw it they wouldn't think anything of it."
“He did it in public situations?”
“Yeah, like a goodbye kind of hug.”
"Did you ever feel in those hugs that he was sexually aroused? You didn’t ever feel he had an erection or anything like that?"
"Okay, the next step."
"I think he kissed me on the cheek, or something."
"When did that occur?"
"I don’t know, around the same time."
"Around the same time, so you’re talking about May – we’re still in May of ‘93. He kissed you on the cheek, under what circumstances? Were you in bed? Were you standing up? What were the circumstances?"
"I think we were in bed."
"What kind of kiss was it?"
"Just a peck on the cheek. I think it was a goodnight peck on the cheek."
"And then what happened?"
"And so he continued that as well as the hugging and then graduated to kissing me on the lips."
"When did that occur as far as you know?"
"I don't know."
"Was it before the summer?"
“Is it correct to say it was June? Would that be reasonable?”
“I don’t know. I really don’t know.”
“But it was before the summer?”
"There are different kinds of kissing on the lips. What kind of a kiss was it?"
"Just a peck."
"Was his mouth open or closed?"
"And how long did it last?"
"I don't know, a second, I think."
"Was this in bed?"
"And then the next step?"
"Next step, I think he graduated to like kissing me for a longer amount of time, you know."
"On the lips?"
"Where was this? Where were most of these things happening? Was it Neverland? Was it mostly Neverland?"
"Were there other places other than Neverland where this was happening?"
"Yeah. At Century City, at the Hideout."
"So primarily at Neverland and Century City Hideout? This Century City Hideout, I don’t think I have a clear picture of what it’s like, you said it’s in an area where people wouldn’t know there was a hideout there."
“Well, there are many apartments around there - - ”
“Is Century City that name of a city around there?”
“You see, I’m from the east coast is all. Century City is part of Los Angeles?”
“Okay, so it’s really an apartment. Right? I get the picture. So it happened there and it happened in Neverland and Century City and in your mother’s house?”
“He was sleeping over at your mother’s house?”
"And when he’d sleep over at your mother's house, he was in the room together with you?"
“I had my room.”
“And he would sleep in your room?”
"About how many occasions did he sleep in your room at your mother's house?"
“I don’t know. My mom would know. I don’t.”
“I don’t know.”
“More than five times?”
“More than ten times would you say?”
“More than fifteen times?”
“I don’t know.”
“Twelve to fifteen would be a reasonable number?”
“It could be a whole lot more but that’s something my mom would have to say.”
“Okay, what we’re talking about now, is this is all before the summer?”
“I think so.”
"Okay, so then, we’re talking about kissing on your lips a long time."
"And then one time he was kissing me on the lips for a longer amount of time - a peck on the lips - and he put his tongue in my mouth."
"And what was your reaction to that?"
"I said, 'Hey, I didn't like that. Don't do that again’."
"And what did he say?"
"He started crying, much like when he tried to convince my mother to allow us to sleep in the same bed."
"And what did he say?"
"He said there's nothing wrong with it. He would get me to do things and convince me that the
things he was doing weren't wrong, because he would talk about people who levitate, you know,
it was weird."
"He would talk about people who what?"
"What does levitate mean to you?"
"Rise up from the ground by means of meditating."
"And what did he say about levitation?"
"That the people who levitate are unconditioned. It's confusing; it took me a long time to
"When you talk about unconditioned, what does that mean?"
"That they were not conditioned to believe that gravity existed, and I suppose that that meant that those who are unconditioned would find what Michael was doing was not wrong. Do you understand that?"
“Uh-huh. What else did he say to you?"
"He said, also, during phase one, the telephone phase, his cousin would go along with him on the tour. And I spoke to his cousin one time. We just said hello."
"Was his cousin a boy or girl?"
"A boy about my age, eleven or twelve."
"What was his cousin's name?"
"His name is Tommy Jones; he was on the news if you’ve been watching, in defense of Michael."
"Tommy Jones. He’s thirteen now?”
“I think - - no, I think he’s twelve.”
“And he went on the concerts?”
“On the tours.”
“On the tours. And he was on the news saying what?"
"He said, 'I will admit that Michael and I are friends and we do sleep in the same bed, but Michael has never touched me,' and, 'it's a really big bed'."
"So he spoke about his cousin. And what did he say about Tommy Jones?"
"He said that, um, like, if he wanted me to do something with him, he would say that Tommy did that with him, so that I would do it. And, like, if I didn't do it, then I didn't love him as much as Tommy did." [Jordie makes a heavy sigh.]
“Are you okay?”
“Okay, fine, you’re doing very nicely. You know, we’re going to take a break but let’s try to finish this and then we’ll take a break.”
"Do you think that Tommy Jones was lying when he went on television?"
"Why do you think he's lying?"
"Because Michael told me they did."
"Okay, but Michael said he did these things - - "
"I mean it could be that Michael could be lying to me."
"Somebody is lying. Right? Because Michael was lying to Tommy by saying the opposite things, right?”
"Yeah, well one of them is lying.”
“Who do you think is lying?”
"Why do you say that?"
"Because in public, when he’s with Tommy, they're very close together physically and verbally and relationship-wise. And if one were to observe things in public, how they acted to each other, one would come to that conclusion, that it was more then just a friendly relationship."
"Now, let’s go on. So that was the lip kissing. Then he cried - - ”
“He tries to make me feel guilty for - - "
“And then what happened?”
"And then one time, when he was hugging me and kissing me, and he rubbed up against me. I don't know if he had an erection or not. I can’t remember."
"Now was this in bed or what?"
“Was this all before the summer?”
“I don’t remember. It may have gone into the summer.”
"So you took what as the next step? You’re talking about the gradual development; the next step was his rubbing against you?"
“With an erection.”
“I think he had an erection. As it graduated he did."
"Then it graduated to where he had an erection and he would kiss me."
"Kiss you where?"
"On my mouth. By the way, he never put his tongue in my mouth again once I told him not to."
"What's the next step?"
"Let's see, I think the next step was, I had an erection and he rubbed up against me and that was it."
"You had an erection and he rubbed himself against - - ?"
"And he did, he did as well."
"Okay, and where was his erection and where was your erection? You both have an erection."
"We were on top of each other."
"That was it, and then it graduated to other stuff. Somewhere during that time we went to Florida."
"When did you go to Florida?"
"I don't know. My mom would know. [April 1993.] And there we stayed in the same room."
"Where was your mother?"
"Same suite, different room, with Kelly."
"What happened in Florida?"
"Several things happened. One, he grabbed my butt, put his tongue in my ear - - "
"He grabbed your butt; was he forcing you?"
"No. Well, he was kissing me and he grabbed my butt."
"It wasn't forced?"
"But, um, and then the third thing was that he was walking to the bathroom to take a shower,
and he looked at me before he closed the door and he said, 'I wish I didn't have to do this,' and he
shut the door, implying that he wished he could be so free as to be able to change in front of me."
“Changing from what to what? I’m a little confused. You said he grabbed your butt - - ”
“There are three different things.”
“He grabbed your butt, put his tongue in your ear and walked into the bathroom and said, ‘I wish I didn’t have to do this.’
“Then he shut the door.”
“How long was he in the bathroom?”
“He took a shower, I don’t know.”
“Now, when he said ‘I wish I didn’t have to do this,’ what was he referring to?”
“To shut the door behind him when he had to change.”
"The implication being that he would like to be naked in front of you, is that what you’re saying?"
"Right. But somewhere on the trip I said, 'I didn't like when you put your tongue in my ear and grabbed my butt.' Once again, he started crying and making me feel guilty, and saying there's nothing wrong with it, and referring to the levitators and Tommy. I think he referred to Tommy and said Tommy wouldn’t care if I did that to him."
"Then what's the next step?"
"By the way, he never did those either. The next step, we went back home to LA and he continued doing the things I hadn't stopped him from doing."
“Is this before the summer or during the summer?”
“I’m sure it was during the summer.”
"The next step?"
"In L.A., he continued those things.”
“Rubbing up against me, having an erection and kissing for long periods of time."
"And having an erection?"
"Then what was the next step?"
"Then we went to Monaco.”
“When did you go to Monaco?”
“During the summer, I think. My mom - - ” [Early May, 1993.]
“And in Monaco?”
“In Monaco, he and I both had colds so we couldn't go out on the town or whatever and see the sights. We had to stay in and that's pretty much when the bad stuff happened."
"I don't know. I think when he convinced me to take a bath with him or something. See, my
mom and Kelly were gone, they were having fun and we were stuck in with colds. And my mom, I remember, she offered to stay in and help us and take care of us, and Michael insisted that our colds shouldn't detract from them having fun. So we were alone and we took a bath together. That was the first time we ever saw each other naked. And during that time when we were alone in the room and they were gone, he talked about how all of his children friends masturbate in front of him."
"Did he say which children friends did it?"
"Which children friends did he say masturbated him?"
"Masturbated in front of him."
"Oh, masturbated in front of him. Okay, who did he say masturbated in front of him?"
"He said Peter Davis, Ian Roberts, Tommy Jones, Billy Williams - he was also on TV."
"He was also on TV and he said what?"
"'Michael and I do sleep in the same bed but Michael has never touched me.'"
"He's lying or Michael's lying?"
"Well, I don't - as far as I know he's not lying. Michael never did touch him, as far as I know. But Michael said that Billy masturbated in front of him."
"So Billy didn't say on TV anything about masturbation?"
"No No. And so, other kids - - Wait, I got to think of this kid’s name, Sam Thomas."
"A boy who went on the Bad tour with him. That’s the name of the tour before this one."
"You say, Bad tour, is that the name of the tour?"
“They called it the Bad tour.”
“Named after his album.”
"So what else happened, if anything?"
"So he was talking about how all these kids masturbated in front of him, and he said that - - Oh, by the way, I met Tommy and Billy during that time period, and Peter Davis as well. So he was saying that all these kids masturbate and it feels really good, and so one time he masturbated in front of me. That was the first time."
"He masturbated in front of you?"
"Um, like, he didn't make me watch and like he was on the bed masturbating, and, I don't know, I was changing."
"This is when you had colds in Monaco?"
"Yeah. I don't know if I was standing in the same room or not, but it wasn't like he shut the door and closed everything."
"Where was he and where were you?"
"He was on the bed, in the room. I was, I may have been getting ready in the bathroom, or in the - - We had a large closet and so I maybe was getting dressed in there."
"But you saw him?"
"Go ahead, next thing."
"And so he continued that for, like, a lot of the trip. And he kept on saying, 'Tell me when you're ready and I'll do it for you.' Because up till then I had never masturbated or anything. And I had never, ever, indicated to him that I was ready, like, to be masturbated. And I guess that wasn't according to his plans, and so, one time he just reached over and said, "Okay, just tell me how this feels.' And he put his hand on my - - "
"And this was in Monaco?"
"Right. And he put his hand on my shorts and he said, 'Now doesn't that feel good.' And he rubbed up and down. And I said 'Yeah.'"
"Did he masturbate you to orgasm, to climax?"
"Well, then he said, 'Well wait, it gets even better,' and he put his hand under my shorts and masturbated me to the end."
"Is that the very first climax you had in your life?"
"Yeah. Well wait, during that summer I had a, what's it called, a wet something?"
"You mean at night, while you're asleep?"
"You mean a wet dream."
"Okay, these were spontaneous. Did you have orgasms in your wet dreams?”
“I had one and that was it.”
“But it was the same feeling?”
“So that was your first, was in the wet dream?”
“And then so your first orgasm outside of a wet dream was when he masturbated you?"
"What was the next step?"
"And he, like, continued that. He stopped everything else that we were originally doing together; we just took baths. And we went to Euro-Disney after we went to Monaco."
"Anything else at Monaco other than what you told me?"
"About how many times would you say he masturbated you at Monaco?"
"I don't know."
"What were your feelings about it then?"
"Well, um, I said, this is really weird, like I never said I was ready then. But I said to myself, it feels good so, just, whatever, and he's my friend, so I can't be - - "
"And while he was masturbating you, what was he doing?"
"Just that, nothing."
"Okay. Is there anything more about Monaco?"
"Okay, what’s the next thing?"
"The next thing, we went to Euro-Disney."
"When was that?"
"After Monaco, because Monaco’s in France as well as Euro-Disney, so we went from Monaco to Euro-Disney."
"And how long were you at Euro-Disney?"
"I don't know, a week or two at most.”
“Was this during the summer?”
“I don’t know. No, wait, no actually now that I remember, up ‘til now, nothing was past the summer now that I remember, because - - ”
“So, Monaco was before the summer?”
“Euro-Disney was before the summer?”
“Yes, everything. Now I remember because I had a book to read for finals. It was called To Kill A Mockingbird. Supposedly that was one of his favorite books. And so he helped me study and he read the book to me and then he continued to masturbate me."
"By the way, if this was before the summer, this is the school time. When you're in all these other places, what's going on with school?"
"Well, I managed to still get all As; I brought my book with me."
"Did the school permit this?"
"What happened at Euro-Disney?"
"He continued to masturbate me."
"About how many times do you think?"
"About once a day. And that was it for Euro-Disney - and France, in general."
"Okay, that was it with Euro-Disney. Anything else?"
"You mean Euro-Disney?"
"I think we might have taken a bath together."
"On one occasion?"
"I don't know. It may have been one, it may have been not at all."
"Okay, next phase, next step."
"Next step, okay. We went home, back to L.A. again. Let's see, I remember, my dad, just as before, last year, was to help me study for finals, and so I was going to go to his house. And my dad and Michael, they had never met before, I don't think. And so, I was going to go to my dad's house and stay over there for, like, the weekend. And he was going to help me study. And that really saddened Michael that we would have to separate. So he stayed over there during that
"At your father's house?"
"That's right. That's the only time." [Actually, there were two weekends.]
"Okay, we're talking about June now? June of ’93?"
"And then he masturbated me there, and one time when he was masturbating me, um, instead, he masturbated me with his mouth."
"So he put his mouth on your penis?"
"Yes. Then, um, from that point, till the end of our relationship, he masturbated me with his mouth. And that was as far as it went."
"About how many occasions did he do that?"
"I don't know but I can tell you where."
"Where did it take place?"
"In my father's house, his Hideout, my mother's house, and Neverland."
"Okay, so these are four different places, so obviously it had to happen at least four times. Right?"
"Oh yeah, of course."
"But I want you to give me a guess - - "
"Okay. More than fifteen, that's safe. But he had me masturbate him."
"On how many occasions?"
"About ten. And he said that - - he had me - - he got me to twist one of his nipples while I sucked on the other and he masturbated himself."
"Was there ever any anal contact at any time?"
"Most men, when they masturbate - whether they be masturbated by someone else or doing it alone - most men have some thoughts in their mind. Sometimes they don't but most often they do. When he was masturbating you, what thoughts were in your mind?"
"Um, I thought, it's weird. It's like it didn't feel right but yet it felt good, and he was a friend so I didn't stop him."
“Most kids your age start, around your age, start to masturbate by themselves usually without
any kind of experience with another person and kids who (inaudible). Have you continued to masturbate since those experiences?”
“I did, I believe, six times right after the end of our relationship.”
“And not since?”
“And not since.”
“I’m not saying you should, but I’m asking you why you did. I’m asking you what were your reasons?”
“Because, I remember that it felt good when he did it and - - ”
“Okay, why did you stop? I’m not saying you should or you shouldn’t. I’m just saying why did you decide stop?”
“I didn’t (inaudible).”
“That’s it. Let’s separate the feeling from him.”
“Let’s do this. Let’s take a break for about ten-fifteen minutes and then we’ll continue. So you stretch your legs. Now I want to put it on the record that I’m not going to be talking to you between our meetings. All contact with you, all the things I’m going to say to you will be in this room on this tape. Do we agree that I haven’t spoken to you prior to this day, right?”
“So that’s very important. Okay, so let’s interrupt.”
“Do you miss him?"
"I'd like to talk to you about how this all came out. By the way, did he say to you that you should never talk to anybody?"
"Yes he did."
"What specific statements did he make to you in that regard?"
"He said that this - that we had a little box, and this was a secret, and it's a box that only him and I could share."
"He was not speaking literally?"
"It was a secret box, like, yeah, pretend we had a box and secrets go in there."
"A secret, like in a little box?"
"Yeah, you put the secret in the box and nobody can know about what's in the box but him and me. And he said, once again, he referred to, like, the unconditioned levitators. He said that we weren't conditioned, but if this box were revealed to other people, like regular people of today's society, they're conditioned and so they would believe it was wrong. And so that's why I
shouldn't reveal what's in the box."
"Do you believe it's wrong?"
"How did your parents learn about this?"
"I guess, after we had - Michael and I had stayed that night - - "
"At my father's, during the finals. He saw that, like, it wasn't a healthy relationship for me."
"What did he observe directly in terms of the sexual activities?"
"No sexual activities."
"He didn't observe sexual activities? But there were sexual activities?"
"There was, but he didn't observe them."
"What did he observe?"
"He observed Michael and I having almost the same personality, the same interests, the same way of speech."
"When you say similar personality - - "
"Like, I would act like him."
"Did you find yourself consciously doing that?"
"Did you make a decision or it just happened?"
"It just sort of happened. Like, the more we hung out together, his personality and his way of speech and everything else would rub off on me. And so he - - Dad saw me alone one time at Cody's, his pre-school graduation, and he told me 'You and Michael have lied to me,' and it seemed like he knew what was going on, without actually saying what was going on."
"So your father suspected. Is that what you're saying?"
"Yeah. And he said it in a stern, serious voice, not yelling."
"Was he speaking to you alone, or - - "
"When did this happen?"
"I, like, right before my school graduation."
"That's May or June?"
"June." [June 9, 1993]
"So what did you say then?
"I didn't. - - He didn't ask me what did you and Michael do together."
"By the way, going back, did he say, 'It's a secret.'"
"Yeah. In terms of did he make any threats?"
"I think he may have said, like, if you tell - - if people say 'Don't worry, just tell us, Michael will go to jail and nothing will happen to me you.' He said that wasn't true, and I could, like, go to juvenile hall or something."
"That he could go to jail but you'd go to juvenile hall?"
"Something like that."
"That he himself could go to jail?"
"I don't specifically remember. I'm almost positive though, that he said about juvenile hall. I'm almost positive he said that, but I do indeed remember that he said that he would go to jail, and that, like, I wouldn't get off Scott free."
"Did you believe that?"
"Well, I didn't really believe it at the time, and I definitely don't now. But at the time I didn't really believe it but I said, okay, whatever, and just went along with it."
"Now let's see. When your father confronted you at first, what did you say?"
"Well, um, it was an intimidating circumstance, where he was talking to me, and he said, 'You've lied to me, as well as Michael.' And I said - I was like, fairly nervous. And he said 'What would you do if I said that I don't want you to go on the tour.' Because I was supposed to be on tour with him now. He's on the tour."
"We were planning on going on the tour. And I said, like, 'I probably would go anyway because I don't know of any valid reason you have,' I said to my dad."
"You still wanted to go on the tour?"
"Yes, at the time."
"Why is that?"
"Because I was having fun. At the time, the things Michael was doing to me, they didn't affect me. Like, I didn't think anything was totally wrong with what he was doing since he was my friend, and he kept on telling me that he would never hurt me. But presently I see that he was obviously lying."
"You're saying you didn't realize it could hurt you? Is that what you're - - "
"I didn't see anything wrong with it."
"Do you see the wrong in it now?"
"What is wrong as you see it?"
"Because he's a grown-up and he's using his experience, of his age in manipulating and coercing younger people who don't have as much experience as him, and don't have the ability to say no to someone powerful like that. He's using his power, his experience, his age - his overwhelmingness - to get what he wants."
"Alright, so, you finally did tell your father. Who was the first adult you told?"
"How many times did he have to ask you before you told him?"
"The first time he asked, you told him?"
"Well see, at the graduation he said, 'You guys are lying to me,’ and that was it, he didn't ask me any questions."
"And what did you say?"
"I just said, 'Huh?,” like, 'I didn't know.'"
"You made believe you didn't know what he was talking about?"
"Right. And then he demanded me over to his house, because
he knew that the circumstances were wrong. And he, like, I was with my mom
and Michael, and he demanded me over to his house. So I went to his house,
and he said just for a week and then you can go back. And I really started
liking it there. And he had to pull my tooth out one time, like, while I was
there. And I don't like pain, so I said could you put me to sleep? And he said
sure. So his friend put me to sleep; he's an anesthesiologist. And um, when
I woke up my tooth was out, and I was alright - a little out of it but conscious.
And my Dad said - and his friend was gone, it was just him and me - and
my dad said, 'I just want you to let me know, did anything happen between you
and Michael?' And I said 'Yes,' and he gave me a big hug and that was it."
"And you never gave him the details?"
"Now you divulged this when? When did you tell him? In what month?"
"July. I believe July. I remember that because it was very close to my sister's birthday, which is July." [It was July 16, 1993.]
[A discussion ensues about the current and possible future effects on Jordie's life.] ////
"Are you interested in girls?"
"Do you find yourself attracted to any boys?"
"Have you ever been attracted to boys?"
"You see, there are some kids who have an experience such as you describe, who shift from the heterosexual to the homosexual track. Do you know what I mean by that? If you ask them at five, six, seven, eight, they say 'I'm going to be a fireman when I grow up and I'm going to get married and have children - something like that - and then they stay on that track. But there are some kids, as a result of an experience like you're describing, that may shift and start moving down the homosexual track. Do you think that's going to affect you?"
"Well, it may, and I guess that's why I'm probably in therapy."
"Okay, but the question is, have you the feeling now that this may happen to you?"
"Why do you say that?"
" 'cause - - I like girls!."
"Do you feel that you could have, somehow, prevented all this stuff with Michael?"
"Because originally - - Remember I said there were a couple things he did and I said 'Don't do
"It worked those times, maybe I could have done it - - "
"You could have been more forceful. Is that what you're saying?"
"Why weren't you?"
"It was hard to do."
"Because he's an adult, he's overwhelming, he's famous, he's powerful."
"Were you in awe of him? Do you know what I mean by awe?"
"In awe of somebody means that you look up to them like they're almost a god, or something like that."
"No. Actually when our relationship got closer and closer I thought less of that. Like most people think that, wow, he's great, because he can dance and sing. But you know, he's just like, a regular person."
"Do you feel guilty about having participated in those acts?"
"Yeah. I regret doing it."
"What about fears? Any fears of any kind?"
"Sometimes people, after experiences of this kind, develop different kinds of fears. You have no fears?"
"Maybe of cross-examination but that's all. I mean I have nothing to hide, it's just the thought of it."
[Jordie describes some of the non-sexual activities he and Michael did together.] ////
"It sounds to me, from what you're describing, he was functioning very much as a child."
"That's what he believed he was."
"You say, psychologically, he believed he was a child? When you were with him - you described the video games - he would play with you child games. Did he ever give any explanation as to why he did that?"
"Because he's, like, when he was young, like my age, his father would continuously make him
work, and like, his father would like beat him and stuff, and he's trying to relive what he didn't have as a young boy. Peter Pan is his idol."
"Why is that?"
"Because Peter Pan is forever young, and he goes on adventures and stuff."
"He could relive all the experiences he didn't have, but what about the sexual part. How does
that fit into reliving? Did he say he had sexual experiences of any kind as a child with some older person?"
"No, not that I know of."
"Did he say he loved you?"
"You know how you look at a romantic movie sometimes and you see the man and the woman, and the man says how much he loves the woman, how much he adores her and praises her. You know about that?"
"Would you say that was the way Michael was with you?"
"Like, it was sort of like a weird kind of love. Like, it was like that but he, he loved me selfishly. Like, regardless of the fact that what he was doing might hurt me, he continued."
"When you say it could have hurt you, how could it have hurt you?"
"Everybody thinks what he was doing could hurt, otherwise it wouldn't be a crime."
"Okay, how could it hurt? As you see it, how could it hurt you?"
"Because - that's a touchy subject, I guess. It separates you from any other people."
"I don't know."
"Just your own guess."
"It could make me depressed or something, I don't know."
"Well, this is important. You say it's a crime. Why is it a crime?"
"Because, like I said before, he's using his experience, power, age - - "
"How could this have left you? If this had gone on and not been interrupted, how could you have ended up?"
"According to his pattern, I believe he would have left me and, sort of dumped me, I guess you could call it. And I would be, sort of, a vegetable."
"Why a vegetable?"
"Because he would continue to do those things and I would have no knowing of what else is out there."
"Say that again. You wouldn't know what else is out there?"
"Right. Like, he didn't like it if I would want to call a girl or something. You know, I wouldn't
know, like, there were other options."
"Are you saying that he would pull you off the track of going out with girls."
"What would you say is the best thing that ever happened to you in your whole life?"
"When I told my dad what Michael was doing to me."
"Why do you say that?"
"Because once I told him, I knew that Michael would never be able to do that to me again. And when something horrible ends, it's most likely the best thing in your life."
"You say - - "
"Like a prisoner being released from prison."
"But are you saying through all of this, although you enjoyed it, you felt a sense of pressure?"
"Was it a big heavy on you? Do you know what - - "
"Could you describe - - "
"Like, I couldn't be open with how I felt. Like if I didn't want to do something I couldn't just say 'I don't want to do that' because he would start crying or whatever. He wouldn't just say 'Okay, whatever, we'll just be friends and play video games.' He'd start crying and do everything in his power to convince me that - - "
"But you voluntarily went back there. You could have said, I don't want to go up to Neverland again, right?"
"So why did you go back?"
"Because regardless of the fact that I went to Neverland, he would be with me. No matter what, he was always with me. It was like, I couldn't just say I don't want to hang out with you today."
"It's not that easy. He would cry. He would say 'You don't love me anymore.' It would be, like a whole deal, you know, it was hard."
"It's my understanding that your mother kind of facilitated things here."
"What's that mean?"
"Facilitate means, she made it easy for him. Another mother might not have believed him with
this stuff about 'It's okay.' You know, some mothers would say 'You're not sleeping in bed with my kid, I don't care what you say.' She got herself talked into it."
"Is it correct she understands now what was going on?"
"It seems to me that your mother went along with him. She equally got fooled. Is that correct?"
"What are your feelings about your mother at this point?"
"She was fooled, just like you said."
"Any feelings about that?"
"That I'm sure if she knew what was going on, that she would say there's no way."
"Have you discussed this with her?"
"This whole thing. About her being fooled."
"No, 'cause, I mean, I personally don't like talking about it more than I have to."
"Do you have any other feelings besides she was fooled?"
"I understand from your parents that you're not spending that much time at your mother's house. Is that correct?"
"And at your age and at your intelligence they are basically letting you make that decision yourself. But there are reasons for everything, and what I want to know from you is, what are your reasons why you want to spend so little time at your mother's house?"
"It's not really that I don't want to spend time at my mother's house. It's, there's, I don't know."
"There's always a reason for everything. Guess."
"I would say it's because there's not so many rules at my father's house."
"And what is the reason for that?"
"I don't know. I guess their values, maybe."
"What about their values?"
"My father doesn't believe, for example, in eating the right food every night. You can have candy."
"Your mother is kind of a stickler?"
"What does that mean?"
"Stickler? Your mother's fussy and your father's less fussy about the food. Is that what you're going to say?"
"Any other reasons?"
"It's not the food specifically, it's her rules in general."
"What about her rules?"
"My mom's rules are more strict. Like, go to bed this time, do homework right when you come home from school."
"Any other reasons why?"
"Well, also, at my mom's house - - the house specifically, or her?"
"Well, I don't want to spend time at that house because Michael's presence is still there."
"It's like his ghost is still in the house, his aura?"
"Any other reasons with your mother?"
"You see, because I'm trying to find out what psychological problems or reactions, if any, you had to this experience - which was a mind-blowing experience. I'm sure you agree on that. When you think of all the kids in the world, to have had this experience with that guy, you know, it's reasonable to say that if you lived to be a thousand you wouldn't forget it. Am I correct?"
"Okay. And it's got to have some effects on people: you're not immune to it. It's probably the
case that it's not going to affect your sex life. You know it could, but it can have more subtle effects. They're not as obvious but they are nevertheless effects. I'm trying to find out - - like one of them is, now you have a -- you can't walk into your mother's house feeling relaxation and comfort because the aura of Michael is there. It's not a sexual effect but it's an effect. And it compromises your relationship with your mother. And I'm just wondering about other things, of those effects. That's why I'm asking you these questions. Do you think it has anything to do with your mother having facilitated. Do you know what I mean by facilitated?"
"Your father thinks, and I'm in agreement with him, that she didn't show enough - although he was such a convincing and seductive guy - that she should have earlier seen that there was some hokey-pokey stuff going on here and pulled you out of there quicker. Do you agree with that?"
"Well, he had me under his spell. So, you know - - "
"His spell? Do you think she was under his spell?"
"Well, he got me under it, so I imagine he could get other people under it."
"I'm wondering whether you do feel some resentment toward her, and that may be a factor why you're not seeing her."
"No. I don't think so."
"Okay. You know, as I understand it from your parents, and as I can see from what you say, when you're under his spell he became like, the - - you were being pulled away from your father, from your mother. You know, you were almost like a, you know, drawn in under his web and taken away from your family, and you viewed him as the most important person in your life. Right?"
"And under those circumstances you often take on the traits and the qualities of that person. Did you take on any of his qualities?"
"I did when I was with him, but I thankfully got rid of them."
"What were the qualities?"
"His way of speech."
"Can you imitate it?"
"He would use words like 'hook me up'. That means get me something. An erection was 'lights.'
"Lights was an erection. Go ahead."
"Cum was 'duck butter.'"
"Duck butter? That was semen, ejaculate?"
"So those were his words and you were using those words?"
"Anything else that became part of you?"
"I want to get clarification with girls. What's your situation with girls at this point? Your father says that you're on the phone a lot."
"Do you talk a lot with girls primarily? Do you spend a lot of time with girls?"
"I see you smiling. Do you have a girl friend at this point?"
"I'm sort of in the process of chasing after one."
"So you got your eye on her?"
"Yeah, I guess you could call it that."
"Have you kissed anybody yet?"
"I kissed this one girl."
"Okay. So, your father seems to think in your relationship with the girls you ask a lot of questions; you're very controlling. Do you think that has anything to do with Michael."
"No - - Well, yeah."
"How does it relate to Michael?"
"Because, I hadn't thought of it this way previously, but now that I think of it, since I put too much trust and gave control to Michael in our relationship, now I watch out for myself."
"What about trust of your mother? Do you think any trust of your mother has been affected?"
"Well, not because she, as people would say, she wanted to pimp me out. More because of maybe, I tried to tell her one time and she didn't believe me."
"When was that? Do you remember?"
"How do you feel about that?"
"I feel that if there's any remote, itty-bitty thing in your mind that your kid may be getting hurt, you should put an army together, you know, if there's a suspicion as strong as that, that my Dad had carried out this far. She should have at least listened to what I had to say."